Tuesday, April 25, 2006

Rabbi David Gans

(1541-1613; Germany-Poland-Bohemia):

i. Nechmad Vena’im 1:13: Rabbi Gans refers to the astronomical dispute between Chazal and the gentile sages on Pesachim 94b, and says simply that Chazal conceded to the gentile sages, who were right.

ר' דוד גנז, נחמד ונעים, שער א, סימן יג (יעסניץ: הר"ר ישראל בר אברהם, תק"ג); ז"ל

יתבאר בו איך יצויר לגוף א' שני מהלכין מתנגדין:

להסביר ולישב את שני הסיבובם המתנגדים הנ"ל וזה מאד קשה ציורו עם שכבר המשילו ודמו אותם החכמים לאדם ההולך בתוך הספינה ממערב למזרח עם כל זה הספינה בעצמה הולכת ממזרח למערב גם דימו אותו לזבוב ההולך על גלגל העגלה ממערב למזרח אך תדע שבסברא זו לא שבעה נפשי מפני שאין הנדון דומה לראיה שהרי קיימא לן שהכוכב איננו מסבב מצד עצמו רק מצד הגלגל המסובבו ובזה הודו חכמי ישראל לחכמי א"ה כדאיתא בפרק מי שהיה טמא וא"כ כאשר גלגל היומי פוגש ומחזיק לגלגל שלמטה הימנו ומכריע אותו ב[כ?]חו אל התנועה היומית ההכרחיות ממזרח למערב איך יצויר שבזמן ההוא יסובב הגלגל בהליכו הרצונית ממערב למזרח וזה דומה לאדם שרצונו לילך למערב וצוה עליו המלך לילך למזרח שאי אפשר כל לילך למזרח ולמערב כ"א והדרא קושי' לדוכתי' כי סוף סוף איך יצויר לגלגל א' לסובב שתי תנועות מתנגדות בבת אחת בין שהיה רצונית או הכרחות ורבים מן הקדמונים ומן אחרונים אשר נלאו ידם וקצרה שכלם בהתרת מבוכה זו ואנחנו בהתרת וישוב מבוכה זו נשמור עד אשר נבא אל סימן הסמוך ושם נעורר עוד מבוכה גדולה ועצומה אשר שניהם תישבו ויתירו יחדיו: עכ"ל

We know that the star does not revolve as a result of its own independent movement, but as a result of the sphere that causes it to revolve; and on this point the sages of Israel conceded to the gentile sages, as it says in chapter Mi Shehaya Tamei [Pesachim 94b].

[Translation by DES.]

(Reference from Rabbi Dr. Isadore (Yitzchak) Twersky, "Joseph ibn Kaspi: Portrait of a Medieval Jewish Intellectual," fn. 52. Thanks to Simon Basalely and (indirectly) to Rabbi Shalom Carmy.)

ii. Nechmad Vena’im 1:25: Rabbi Gans refers to the astronomical dispute between Chazal and the gentile sages on Pesachim 94b, notes that Chazal conceded to the gentile sages, and questions whether Chazal were really justified in doing so, or whether they may have actually been right. He finishes the passage with a quotation from Abarbanel, who believed that different Talmudic sages held different opinions on the matter, and that the truth was unclear even in his day. It is clear from Rabbi Gans’ statements, however, that Chazal did concede because they believed themselves scientifically incorrect.

ר' דוד גנז, נחמד ונעים, שער א, סימן כה (יעסניץ: הר"ר ישראל בר אברהם, תק"ג); ז"ל

אם כוכב קבוע או גלגל קבוע וכוב חוזר:

רוב החכמים הקדמונים והאחרונים גזרו ואמרו שכל כוכבי השמים הן כל א' משבעה כוכבי לכת הן שום א' משאר כוכבי שבת אין לו לא מהם שום תנועה מעצמו כלל אלא כל א' מהם קבוע ותקוע בחלול עובי' גלגלו וסבובו הכוכבים עלייתם ושקיעתם נטייתם לצפון ולדרום איננו אלא על ידי תנועות גלגליהם הנושאים אותם כאנשים היושבים בספינה או כיתדות התקועים בגלגל העגלה באופן שהכוכב קבוע וגלגל חוזר לא כדברי האומר גלגל קבוע וכוכב חוזר ובזה הודו חכמי ישראל לחכמי האומות כדאיתא בפסחים בפ' מי שהיה טמא. אך תדע שהחוקר הגדול המופלא בחכמת הכוכבים ויחיד בדורו ראש החכמים היושבים לפני אדונינו הקיסר רודלפו"ס יר"ה השר טיח"א ברא"הי אמר לי לא יפה עשו חכמי[?ם] שהודו לחכמי האומות על דבר שקר כי הדין עם חכמי ישראל באמרו שהכוכבים חוזרי' במהלכם העצמיים בלתי הכרח תנועות הגלגלים רק בעצמם שטים ורצים כעוף הפורח באויר והרבה בראיות. וכתב מזה ספר והוכיח באותותיו ומופתיו העיונים שמקצת כוכבים יסובבו תוך גלגל חמה ויעברו על עגול משלול החמה ובחוש הראיה שאין עד כמוהו בעולם שראה כל זאת ע"י כלים המופלאים אמר מפני זה שפט וגזר שגם כוכב חוזר זולת תנועו' גלגליו וכן שמעתי מפי החכם המופלג פלירו"ס באומרו מאחר שנראה לנו לענים שקצת הכוכבים לפעמי' יעתיקו ומקיפים כצורו' כף גם כצורות אחרות חוץ למסילם לצד צפון של המסלל וכמו כן לצד דרום שאי אפשר לעמוד ולישב עקמומית מהלכי הכוכבים אם לא שנאמר שהכוכבי' לפעמים שטים ברקיע כעוף הפורח באויר. וגם את זאת ראיתי להודיעך שמצאתי בדברי החכם דון יצחק אברבנאל בפרושו בפ' בראשית בפסוק ויעש אלקים את שני המאורות שהפילסופים הקדמונים כמו פלוטי"נו וסייעתו כתבו בספרם נקר' (הטבע"י) והוא ספר היקר מאוד אצל חכמי האומות שהשבעה כוכבי הנבוכה ילכו באמצע האויר ושינה ושילש הדעת הזה שם בספרו ומסכים לזה כתב בספרו פילוט" ותלמיד מתלמידי אריסטוטלוס וגדול מגדוליהם שחבר ספרים בכל הפילוסופיא כי הוא כתב שלא היה המאורות חלקי הגלגלים ולא קבועים בהם אבל היו הכוכבים מהלכים באויר בין השמים ובין הארץ והגלגלים הם נחים ולא מהלכים עכ"ל וכתב עוד שם שאין ראוי להחליט במה שאמרו חז"ל גלגל קבוע וכוכב חוזר שיהיה מאמר בטל ולפחות היה הדבר בספק אצל קצתם ומצאתי לזה עדות גדול' בדברי רבותינו ז"ל בבראשית בפ' ו' בדבר' במאורות וזה לשונם שם אמר ר"ש בן יוחאי אין אנו יודעין אם פורחים הם באויר ואם שטין הם ברקיע ואם מהלכים כדרכן הדבר קשה מאד ואי אפשר לבריות לעמוד עליו עכ"ל: עכ"ל


Most of the early and the latter scholars declared that the heavenly stars ... do not move at all of themselves, but rather each is fixed, sunk in a cavity in its sphere; and the revolution of the stars, their rising and setting, their northward and southward inclination, is caused solely by the movements of their spheres, which carry them, ... in such a manner that the star is fixed and the sphere rotates – against those who say that the sphere is stationary and the star revolves; and on this point the sages of Israel conceded to the gentile sages, as it says in Pesachim [94b], Chapter Mi Shehaya Tamei. But know that the great ... astronomer ... Tycho Brahe told me that the sages [of Israel] did not do well in conceding a falsehood to the gentile sages; for the sages of Israel were correct in saying that the stars revolve in their own independent movement, not imposed by the movement of the spheres; ... and he brought many proofs.... I also want to apprise you of this, that I found in the writings of Don Yitzchak Abarbanel, in his commentary to Bereishit, on the verse, “God created the two luminaries,” that the early philosophers ... wrote [that the stars move through the air independently of the spheres, which are stationary]; and he wrote further there that “It would not be advisable to negate definitively Chazal’s statement that the sphere is fixed and the stars revolve; and at the very least the matter was held in doubt by some of them; and I found strong testimony to this in the statements of our rabbis, in Bereishit, chapter 6, in their discussion of the luminaries: ‘Rabbi Shimon ben Yochai said, “We do not know whether they fly through the air or coast on the sky or travel on their paths; the matter is very difficult, and it is impossible for men to ascertain.’”

[Translation by DES.]

(Reference from Rabbi Dr. Isadore (Yitzchak) Twersky, "Joseph ibn Kaspi: Portrait of a Medieval Jewish Intellectual," fn. 52. Thanks to Simon Basalely and (indirectly) to Rabbi Shalom Carmy.)

11 comments:

Anonymous said...

I did not fully follow why if chazal conceded to the goyim in a matter of science, it show that scientific statements in the gemarah can be falsified.

The gemarah in pesachim is not worse than any havah aminah and maskanah.

If rovah says x is tomei, the next day, he said x is tohor.

You would not I hope say, this shows that ravah was fallible in halacha, and anybody has the right to challenge rava's halachic decisions.

the chazon ish writes (I think in kovetz igros)that every thing in the gemarah is written with nevuah and so cannot be challenged.

The gemarah in pesachim does not contradict this assertion.

lets say one would find some correspondence between an amorah and a goy about some scientific matter, finishing off with the amorah saying you are right, thank you for pointing it out.

while it may be fascinating to read, it would not be evidence for your thesis as it is what the final decision of the gemarah that counts.

DES said...

You are arguing in favour of the position that only the maskana of the Gemara need be correct, and therefore that the only statements of rishonim and acharonim that are relevant to this discussion are those that assert that the Gemara's scientific maskana is wrong. I am well aware that there is such a position, and it is for this reason that section III-A of this list was created. The sources in III-A are those you will find most significant, since they address your concern.

Some prominent rabbis today assert that Chazal's scientific knowledge was derived from Kabbalah and/or other methods of deriving fact from the Torah. They assert that since this was the source of Chazal's scientific knowledge, that knowledge cannot have been in error. This source does seem to contradict that position, since evidently here Chazal's view was in error. This means either that they sometimes deduced incorrect scientific facts from the Torah, or that their sources of scientific knowledge were more varied and less reliable than their sources of Torah knowledge. Either way, it shows that the quality of their scientific knowledge was imperfect. I agree with you that it still allows for the possibility that some sort of divine assistance prevented scientific errors from finding their way into the Talmud's conclusions.

I have seen the letter of the Chazon Ish to which you refer. It is unfortunate that he does not justify his position with evidence. It is hard to believe an assertion unaccompanied by a justification, especially when there is so much evidence against it -- even if the assertion is made by the Chazon Ish.

Anonymous said...

I should have looked at III-A before I posted.

RE chazon ish, you say there is so much evidence against it, perhaps there is just as much evidence for it. what happens if there are more poskim who support the chazon ish then who disagree ?

who has the actual majority may not concern you, but it could well have concerned the chazon ish who ruled accordingly.

DES said...

RE chazon ish, you say there is so much evidence against it, perhaps there is just as much evidence for it.

I would be quite interested in seeing evidence that supports the Chazon Ish's assertion. I am not aware of any--aside from the assertions of a couple of rishonim and assorted acharonim, which sort of begs the question.

what happens if there are more poskim who support the chazon ish then who disagree ?

Your next sentence answers the question.

who has the actual majority may not concern you, but it could well have concerned the chazon ish who ruled accordingly.

You may be right that the Chazon Ish felt his position to be the majority view and ruled accordingly. I maintain, however, that the popularity of a view is of no significance in this matter, unless it is universally, or almost universally, held--which the Chazon Ish's position is not. I will be happy to change my mind about this if someone can explain to me why the greater popularity of an opinion ought to be decisive in this fact-finding discussion. I do not see why it should be relevant.

Anonymous said...

. I will be happy to change my mind about this if someone can explain to me why the greater popularity of an opinion ought to be decisive in this fact-finding discussion. I do not see why it should be relevant.
.....


some preliminary thoughts.

(1)when dealing with halachic matters, it is indeed the majority rule that counts, despite the fact that halachah may involve a fact finding process.

regarding non halachic matters, I do not believe one is entitled to form an independent opinion from chazal, one cannot say chazal could have made better political/religious gains, if they would have dealt with the greeks/romans in a different manner. As far as I know the (igros) chazon ish calls such a viewpoint heresy.


similarly emunas chachamim dictates when deciding how to believe in matters of hashkafah, even those which have halachic ramifications one should follow the majority view. eg how to relate to the state of Israel (which has ramifications for saying halel with or without a brachah or not saying and donning sackcloth on independence day.) Making a personel political judgement on this, is in my view not acceptible.

(2)Question: Did the maskanah of the gemarah merit heavenly help not to publish incorrect science, despite the potential fallibility of individual amoraim.


http://torahandscience.blogspot.com/2006/04/purpose-of-this-compilation.html

"(a) the similarity of various scientific beliefs of Chazal to beliefs known to be current among contemporaneous philosophers or other ancients, "

this is far from an absolute proof, as according to the mahral and ramchal,they were not meant literally.


(b) "the lack of evidence that they knew science better than their gentile counterparts"

heavenly help is beyond the scope of scientific fact finding, and the best way one can hope to come to the truth of this matter, is to rely on the majority verdict, which enjoys havenly help.

http://torahandscience.blogspot.com/2006/04/some-preliminary-observations.html

"I personally assume that Talmudic science was flawed, and understandably so, given that the greatest scientists of the Talmudic era had reached conclusions that later investigations have since disproved.
"
see mahral (be'ar hagolah) and ramchal

DES said...

similarly emunas chachamim dictates when deciding how to believe in matters of hashkafah, even those which have halachic ramifications one should follow the majority view....

No; one should follow one's own rebbeim. The majority is relevant when the Sanhedrin renders a psak; there is currently no Sanhedrin.

Making a personel political judgement on this, is in my view not acceptible.

I assume you intend to imply that similarly, one may not reach any independent conclusions regarding the quality of Chazal's science, but must submit to the opinions of gedolei Torah on the matter, since they alone are empowered by the Torah to render decisions in such a matter. My response is contained in section I-C; it is that in my considered opinion, the fact that Chazal made scientific errors is more obvious than the truth of the Torah. Therefore, if the dictates of the Torah conflict with the assertion that Chazal erred in science, it is the Torah that must be wrong. Happily, I believe the Torah has never and will never require anyone to believe Chazal were always scientifically correct; the numerous gedolei Torah who assert Chazal's scientific fallibility is one of several arguments in favour of my position.

"(a) the similarity of various scientific beliefs of Chazal to beliefs known to be current among contemporaneous philosophers or other ancients, "

this is far from an absolute proof, as according to the mahral and ramchal,they were not meant literally.


You are correct that it is not an absolute proof; it is merely quite suggestive. Note also that Maharal's explanations of what Chazal "really" meant are not consistently convincing, and that many rishonim disagree with at least some of them. Ramchal's explanations are less familiar to me, but why should I accept them if they conflict with the (scientifically incongruous) explanations offered by the rishonim, whiom I assume to have known the correct pshat, if not the correct science?

heavenly help is beyond the scope of scientific fact finding, and the best way one can hope to come to the truth of this matter, is to rely on the majority verdict, which enjoys havenly help.

Why should I believe that majority views among the tannaim or amoraim regarding scientific matters enjoyed heavenly help?

see mahral (be'ar hagolah) and ramchal

I am not sure to which passage(s) of Ramchal you refer. I have read Be'er Hagolah, and found it depressingly unconvincing.

DES said...

Sorry for taking so long to respond; I was travelling.

DES said...

Just to add one further and important point to my arguments above, and specifically to the paragraph beginning "I assume you intend to imply:"

Each person must establish the first principles of his beliefs for himself. For example, if the credibility one assigns the gedolei hadoros is based on the Torah's recognition of them, one cannot rationally believe in the Torah on the basis that what those gedolim say it is true; for this is circular. Similarly, any and all discussions of the veracity of the Torah must necessarily be conducted without invoking the special reliability attributed by the Torah to Torah sages. This implies that each person has the freedom to disagree with the assertion of any or all Torah sages -- notwithstanding the Torah's general recommendation of their opinion -- if he honestly believes their assertion so unlikely that, despite the evidence for the veracity of the Torah, it is nonetheless more probable that both the Torah and the assertion are false, than that both the Torah and the assertion are true.

Anonymous said...

"The majority is relevant when the Sanhedrin renders a psak; there is currently no Sanhedrin.
"

as far as I know yochid verabim halachah kerabim
is not confined to a beis din, but a method of paskening accepted by all poskim even (if there is no application of achrei rabbim lehatos)[beis yosef uses it the whole time (rif, rosh,rambam)as I believe he says in his hakdamah]


"the fact that Chazal made scientific errors is more obvious than the truth of the Torah. "

the chiuv to accept the torah is not dependent upon the perceived quality of the rational proofs that it happened.

"note also that Maharal's explanations of what Chazal "really" meant are not consistently convincing, "

could you give 2 examples ?

"I am not sure to which passage(s) of Ramchal you refer"

http://torahandscience.blogspot.com/2006/04/ramchal.html

whereas the former seems to say that Chazal may have sometimes incorporated into their metaphors ancient scientific ideas that are simply incorrect –


"Why should I believe that majority views among the tannaim or amoraim regarding scientific matters enjoyed heavenly help?"

I meant that just as heavenly help is given to the majority of poskim not be nichshal and come to the correct halachik outcome, the same would apply to their pesak on belief in everything contained in the gemarah

"Sorry for taking so long to respond; I was travelling"

Sorry for taking so long to respond; I was busy

"Each person must establish the first principles of his beliefs for himself"

neat logic, but belief in torah does not depend upon logic, but rather faith, emunah is belief or faith rather than empirical proof.

DES said...

I am very sorry that I have been so long in responding. Various momentous events in my life, such as engagement, marriage, and moving several times, have kept me preoccupied and away from this blog. I don't know if you're still checking occasionally to see whether I have written anything, but I owe you a response anyway.

as far as I know yochid verabim halachah kerabim
is not confined to a beis din, but a method of paskening accepted by all poskim even (if there is no application of achrei rabbim lehatos)[beis yosef uses it the whole time (rif, rosh,rambam)as I believe he says in his hakdamah]


It is possible that based on yachid verabim or some related principle, a posek today may not, for example, rule against all Rishonim who addressed a certain topic. However, yachid verabim is not relevant in our context, since there were clearly many great authorities on both sides of the Chazal-and-science issue, and thus the situation is not one of yachid verabim but rabim verabim. In such a case, post-Sanhedrin and post-Talmud, we need not be concerned with which rabim is more numerous.

the chiuv to accept the torah is not dependent upon the perceived quality of the rational proofs that it happened.

If one's belief in the Torah is based upon reason (see below), then the chiyuv to accept the Torah cannot be stronger than the reason that dictates its truth.

"note also that Maharal's explanations of what Chazal "really" meant are not consistently convincing, "

could you give 2 examples ?


I don't have a Be'er Hagolah in front of me, but one example that I remember off the top of my head is his explanation of the Gemara on Pesachim 94b re. the sun's path by day and night.

"I am not sure to which passage(s) of Ramchal you refer"

http://torahandscience.blogspot.com/2006/04/ramchal.html


I do not see how this passage explains "Why [I] should believe that majority views among the tannaim or amoraim regarding scientific matters enjoyed heavenly help" -- which is what I was asking about.

I meant that just as heavenly help is given to the majority of poskim not be nichshal and come to the correct halachik outcome,...

Where does this idea come from? Does not the tanur achnai case (according to the Ran's explanation; see http://torahandscience.blogspot.com/2006/04/ran.html) contradict it? He says the majority were wrong in that case in some sort of "objective halachic" sense, yet they carried (and still carry) the day.

"Each person must establish the first principles of his beliefs for himself"

neat logic, but belief in torah does not depend upon logic, but rather faith, emunah is belief or faith rather than empirical proof.


I assume I am not the only orthodox Jew who simply does not have such faith. Why should anyone be expected to have it? By definition it cannot be rationally justified. What if one is not born with it? Are those who (tentatively) arrive at the truth of the Torah via rational means doomed ultimately to reject it, because it cannot withstand rational investigation and must rely solely on unjustifiable faith? Obviously I do not share this axiom.

DES said...

This discussion is continued at http://torahandscience.blogspot.com/2006/04/ran.html.